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Josh-D. S. Davis

Xaminmo / Omnimax / Max Omni / Mad Scientist / Midnight Shadow / Radiation Master

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Patriot Act expanded
Josh 201604 KWP
joshdavis
This Wired Article states that the Patriot act has been expanded recently and sneakily...

Sieg Heil!
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if i said anything, it would be in the form of many expletives, so i will just say...::Sigh::

Yah. Just practice the open-handed salute and work on your diction for "Mein Furher!"

Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

All I can say is that if you're not a terrorist thinking of killing innocent people in America, you really should have anything to worry about.

Show me one documented case of the US Govt opressing, manhandling, or otherwise wronging any person as a result of the Patriot Act.

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Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

Before you think my girlfriend is an asshole, let me clarify that was me.

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Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

Again, I ask you two things: 1) Have you ever actually read any of the text in the socalled "Patriot Act?" 2) Can you show me any reference to an example of this Act being used to "wrongly accuse" anyone of anything or "violate many of the tenants of the 4th amendment?"

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Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

Ask Bonnie her thoughts on the library issue. She's a lot more knowledgeable than I in that area.

And yes I have read it. The use of the term so-called does not imply irony or an assertion that it isn't really called The Patriot Act, so your postscript is a bit overly argumentative.

Before I answer your question, which you've just now asked for the first time (I re-read everything to make sure I wasn't unintentionally being evasive), let me point out that this mild case of paranoia is precisely why I find myself feeling much more optimistic on the conservative side of things. There is no law on the books that couldn't in some way be abused by someone. Assuming that this Act will lead to an ever increasing erosion of civil liberties is a prime example of slippery-slopism, an argument that I believe is a logical fallacy, especially in this, the most open and citizen-scrutinized country on Earth.

So your question: Why was McCarthy right? It's simple. There WERE Communists in the State Department, and not the friendly, everybody-love-each-other Communists that druggie actors, punk bands, and high school hipsters wear teeshirts to praise. Actual conspirators from a school of thought subscribing to the idea that the State should run every aspect of citzens' lives, whether the majority agreed or not. Jonah Goldberg wrote an excellent piece earlier this year about reclaiming the word McCarthyism because most people who use it today don't even know who Joseph McCarthy was or what he did. (link)

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Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

1) Ah. Yes. A reply to the original comment by "bonnie." I had forgotten about that, and was only checking replies to farrisgoldstein.

2) *splut*

3) You're not questioning, you're outright claiming that this is an outrageous gateway to totalitarianism. Again, ain't gona happen.

4) Well, Jen, my position is that this is not one of those laws.

5) Godwin's Law might apply here.

6) Indeed, in many countries, not only would you be imprisoned or dead for saying the things you've said, I'd be dead for having a conversation with you, knowing that you aren't 100% happy with our government.

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Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

if they can keep the emotions from getting too high... and try to stay as objective as possible...

And... stop... using... so... many... damn... ellipses... ;)

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

What do you mean? I mean... ellipses? They are... um... good... Right?

I used to have an addiction to ellipses and "sorry".

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

I like "splut" as a word, but it sounds obscene so I won't outright say "I like splut" until such time as I bother to look up its meaning.

Same thing with Godwin's Law.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

I first heard/saw splut in the Garfield cartoons. When someone got hit with a pie, the sound it made was *SPLUT*

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

You mis-understood #4.

And Nooo! We can't talk out about the Gov't. It might be logged for later (ab)use! Run, the commies are coming! The Nazi's are coming.

or something.

I'm just being silly now because it's easier than joining an arguement I missed.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

No no... It's Josh McCarthy... (ribs Jenn)

She asked about the McCarthy thing originally as a reply to the mis-sent-Bonnie-post. You both suck. :)

A mild case of paranoia is a good thing, IMHO. I'd prefer a mild case of paranoia get in the way of things than a bigger case of civil unrest. The perception of the law is likely much more oppressive than the laws themselves; however, the perception is what the average person lives by.

When people have the perception that they are losing their rights, they tend to get a little more tense, more testy. In several circles I've heard talks of civil unrest in our lifetime should this sort of trend continue.

This is a big change. The executive/enforcement structures of the federal government are restructuring. It's bound to make people a little uneasy.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

Haha. You rock. :)

Hey, I know I'm coming in after-the-arguement, but I'm curious how much of your arguements, in general, are devil's advocate and how many are own-belief.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

It's about fifity-fifty usually. But I really, sincerely believe that the Patriot Act is something people really don't understand and are far too paranoid about.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

Yah... Alot of the paranoia is truly about "what could be" vs "what is". My fear is that, ok, say that the current lot is all trustworthy. Fine, but there will be someone to come into power to misuse it. Plus, in general, people get tweaky when something is taken away, especially when it's the illusion of freedom or comfort.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

I understand, but I just don't see what is being taken away. People go nuts about the library thing as if Men in Black can just show up at your local branch and demand to know what books you read, where you go to church, what you bought your cousin for Christmas, and what type of toilet paper you like to use. It just doesn't work that way. There is due process, there are checks/balances, and nobody can be detained with any less just cause than before the Patriot Act.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

It's all in the presentation and propaganda. Think... mass hysteria, only a little toned down.

I don't really know what I think about it because I haven't read it. I've heard lots of propaganda though. I know that I generally prefer fewer restrictions on what I can do and a little more privacy. I tend to not be around extremely high-profile targets, so I'm a little less concerned about security.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

Hrm... being incarcerated for months without a way out because you "fit the profile" or because a friend of a friend of a friend knows a guy who was seen walking near a terrorist?

IMHO, all powers need checks and balances because the people who wield power are people and not perfect machines.

Re: Have you read any of the changes to the "Patriot Act"?

Wow... You are lined up to be one of Hitler's best. Truly.

There are plenty of people who have "fit the profile" and been held without recourse. There are a few small cases that have been in the news.

As for oppressing/manhandling... check Daniel's journal for examples of two people from Canadia having serious border problems without having "done" anything particularly evil.

But to me, it's more than *just* the patriot act. One single bad chunk of law... There's the DMCA, there's the whole concept of the SSOffice of Homeland Security.

IMHO, any instituion saying "trust us... If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have to worry about these new rules." stinks of corruption.

IMHO, EVERY ruling power should have appropriate checks, balances, and simple procedures to challenge actions for proof.

But, to paraphrase your own statements from months back, "If you can't see that it's obvious, then I don't really have anything else to say about it."

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